Thank you for brand new quote that we had not seen just before
I’m not sure if you had entry to Douglas Richardson’s Plantagnet Origins or perhaps not, because it was composed because the a research to have Us citizens which have colonial forefathers from Plantagenet lineage. The guy gives among his evidences one Joanna is this new mommy out-of Gwladus Ddu the truth that Llewelyn offered the fresh new functions regarding Knighton and you may Norton castles inside the Shropshire so you’re able to Ralph Mortimer when the guy and Gwladus had been partnered. It would was in fact illegal for Llewelyn to provide Joanna’s possessions so you can an enthusiastic illegitimate child (or individual who wasn’t a child off Joanna). The fresh functions out-of Norton and you will Knighton stayed about Mortimer family relations thereafter. The latest quotation was, “That in case the fresh Queen offer Land to men having a good lady regarding his kindred inside honest relationships, additionally the woman dyeth in place of procedure, the man in the Leaders circumstances should maybe not hold it to own their lifetime, as the woman was the cause of the brand new gift.” Put another way, the fresh qualities would have reverted back to the brand new top prior to they would-have-been made available to a baby who had been perhaps not Joanna’s.
Hello, Marilyn, I did not get access to the latest Plantaganet Origins by the Doug Richardson, but performed get access to the countless talks related to your and their theories together with other genealogists (specific getting your, but some plus against). I believe, while i made in my personal earlier paper, you to exactly what shifts they for me(Joanna being the mom off Gwladus), is the import of qualities your explore to Ralph de- Mortimer on his ed a couple of their children ‘John’ and you can ‘Joan.’ I can not suppose when the Gwladus ended up being the fresh new ded their particular students hence. In spite of the arguments involving the eminent genealogists We discuss more than, there is a standard opinion you to Gwladus Ddu are going to be fairly identified as the brand new child from Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth by Joanna, child (next legitimised) out-of John, Queen regarding England. I want to take it chance to agree with Sharon (when you look at the an email for me) one to Llywelyn’s daughter Gwenllian try because of the Tangwystyl and not Joanna, thereby getting blood sis in order to Gruffudd. We base that it partially into a contemporary listing utilized in ‘Royal and other Historic letters Illustrative of your rule regarding Henry 111,’ edited by the Rev. Walter W. Shirley, vol step 1. Into pages five-hundred-503 is the transcript regarding a distinctive page old Marshall, Earl off Pembroke, in order to King Henry 111. Inside letter, Marshall discusses their siege of one’s castles regarding Crum, Kilmore and you will O’Realy. He listing the folks the guy found in the palace O’Realy when they surrendered, it incorporated: “…uxor Wilelmi de- Lascy, filia Leulini, soror Griffini de- patre mais aussi matre, et uxor Thomae Blund fratis dicti Willelmi, ainsi cute Caribbean islands women que mater dictorum Willelmi et Thomae ….” I am informed this particular means we have here Gwenllian, daughter regarding Prince llywelyn, who appears to be called ‘brother off Gruffudd.’ As we know Gruffudd become new illegitimate son of Llywelyn, it is removed that ‘de- patre ainsi que matre’ means that Gwenllian and you will Gruffudd were full blood sibling and you may sister. Got Gwenllian been Joanna’s child hence Queen Henry’s relative, seriously Marshall could have stated on that reality? So it failure from de Lacy’s wife as the king’s relative, are taken as close particular research you to definitely Gwenllian wasn’t new child of the king’s sibling Joanna.
Such qualities was element of Joanna’s maritagium of her father King John
Ken: Thank you for you to definitely reference to Gwenllian. I am most certainly not a specialist genealogist, but I actually do many lookup without any help traces. I believe a few of the “pros” are incredibly envious and you can aggravated of each most other (no less than obviously means in a number of of everything it blog post). You will find things that the audience is not planning to know with confidence on people in the fresh new MA because they didn’t continue vital records eg we perform today, so genealogists and you can historians need to use their finest view inside sorting some thing away. Actually, vital records was a fairly “new” style – of several claims here in the united states did not continue facts away from births and you will deaths till the very early 1900’s. I belong to multiple ancestry societies in which I’ve had so you can confirm eleven otherwise several generations, and you will believe me it is not easy. Therefore i extremely enjoy the situation off comparing MA ancestors. (As well as the unfortunate material is the fact that the info available towards MA try of your royalty and you can nobility – absolutely nothing whatsoever toward common anyone).